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[Music]

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hey

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[Music]

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blast off on another episode of hero

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paranormal podcast that's right the

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hyper anomalous

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esoteric research organization podcast

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brought to you by me ryan the original

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outlaw of the airwaves broadcasting

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just south of area 51 at the base of la

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madre mountain

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and we got a heck of an episode today

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quite the amazing guest

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before we get to that a little bit of

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shameless self-promotion

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if you haven't been to

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heroparanormal.com

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please slide on by there's a big old

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button there at the beginning

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click it hit it destroy it

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that is your key to the inner circle

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that's right for the cost of a cup of

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coffee

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a month you are there you get all

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of the content that patrons

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and my supporter family gets so yeah get

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in

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guest

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mr ralph blumenthal pulitzer prize

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winning

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reporter for the new york times from

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1964 to 2009

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this best-selling book is a stunner the

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believer

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alien encounters hard science and the

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passion

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of john mack a book that reads

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like a hollywood movie i could not put

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it down i'm not even kidding

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i not only cried reading the book but

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also smiled at the amazing skill

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and perseverance of the magnificent man

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john mack the skill with which this book

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is written puts it in a class

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all its own taking 16 years to research

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write and publish no corners were cut

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worthy of every award the field has to

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offer

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i can honestly say this book is a work

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of art

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everyone interested in the subject

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matter should consider having

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on their shelves well let's get to it i

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am chomping at the bit i'm like a kid in

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a candy store

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waiting to talk to ralph blumenthal so

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with no further ado

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what an honor mr ralph blumenthal

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welcome to the hero paranormal podcast

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my man

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hi ryan how are you i am doing amazingly

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and speaking of amazing what a treasure

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trove of information the believer is

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it is absolutely amazing and as a

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question

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uh i'm sure many listeners are

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interested in

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who was john mack for those who don't

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know

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and what intrigued you to write about

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john mack for listeners who are not

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familiar

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with his remarkable life john mack was

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an esteemed member of

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harvard medical school a member of the

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psychiatry faculty

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uh he had won a pulitzer prize with a

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psychobiography of lawrence of arabia

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t.e lawrence um he had a

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eminent career bringing mental health

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care to the harvard

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area to cambridge

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he had been very active in social causes

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protesting nuclear weapons

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world affairs he uh was very focused on

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middle east peace he had met with yasser

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arafat so he had a very distinguished

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career

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uh uh in earthbound causes

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um through a series of steps that i

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discuss in my book the believer

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he got interested in um spiritual

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matters particularly the whole mystery

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of alien abduction

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and um he pursued that he was a notable

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researcher in that field because of his

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his background um and

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uh he really actually you know re

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uh focused or remade the field uh which

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had

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you know been looked into by other some

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other researchers which we can discuss

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um now how i got into it i picked up one

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of his books i was a correspondent in

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texas

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for the new york times i was not

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particularly uh

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you know interested in ufology i read

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science fiction as a

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as a kid but it was not one of my

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particular interests and i picked up one

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of his books passport to the cosmos it

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was his second book

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and i was intrigued by the idea of a

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harvard psychiatrist interested in alien

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abduction

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i thought it would make a good story um

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i had no idea how famous he already was

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then he's been in the new york times

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he'd been on oprah

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he uh he had you know quite a reputation

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in the field as a researcher

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none of which i knew uh so i thought i

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would

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call him up and and maybe interview him

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and i picked up the paper a few days

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later and lo and behold he'd been run

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over in london

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uh by a drunk driver and killed um

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and that's really what got me focused on

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you know going back over his career and

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uh

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getting access to his archives through

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his family

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and uh and writing his story

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such an amazing story and a very kind

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genius successful human being

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for those who explained the abduction

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experience is just nightmares

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did mac destroy this thinking i think he

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did

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um first of all he among his many claims

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to fame

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uh was a book he had written on

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nightmares

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and for people later who came along and

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said you don't understand these people

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are just having nightmares they're

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dreaming it all up

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these you know encounters with alien

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beings

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um he was able i think quite

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successfully to put that to rest

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saying look i know what nightmares are

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and these are not nightmares for one

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thing they didn't always happen at night

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they happened in the daytime that

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happened while people were driving their

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cars

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walking around in the woods all kinds of

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places in one case a woman

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uh driving a snowmobile so

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they would they didn't always happen

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when people were

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asleep or near sleep in their bedrooms

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wow

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yes this is true another very like

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in my opinion one of the best recounts

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to date of the betty and barney hill

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incident

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was i i thought i knew a lot about this

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but yet

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betty and barney hill there was a

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mention of a dog something

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i'm sure many didn't know and other

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aspects nobody has touched upon really

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well i made it a point of going back to

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the whole history

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of alien encounters in order to inform

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myself

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and i should say brian that i think one

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of the problems with the so-called

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skeptics

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uh is that they do not do their homework

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they don't know the literature they

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don't know

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the research that's been done so they

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can't really debunk it

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they haven't taken the time to study

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all the i don't want to say evidence but

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yes evidence

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it's anecdotal it's fragmentary it's

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flawed but

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there are many many accounts and there's

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a whole literature of information

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that you sort of have to master before

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you can come to grips with it

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and and certainly before you can write

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it all off

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as delusion or mental illness or all the

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other things they

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they come up with so um

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so one of one of the things i did was

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study the betty and bonnie hill case

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it happened in 1961 but it didn't come

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to light till

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uh two years later uh because

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betty and bonnie hill kept it quiet what

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happened to them they saw

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a flying disc as they said as they drove

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through the white mountains

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their dog was cowering in the car this

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uh this

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this saucer followed them eventually

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the car you know stopped which is common

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in these stories

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they got out and they were

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captured as he put it by alien beings

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who put them

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into a spacecraft with all kinds of

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different experiments

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some of which they remembered

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consciously but mostly was retrieved

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through

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hypnotic regression later because their

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memories were fogged

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but it's a very detailed account

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that they each gave it absolutely

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dumbfounded the

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the psychiatrist who um interviewed them

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a very well-known world war ii combat

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psychiatrist named benjamin simon

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not john mack because this was way

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before john mack got interested

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and he basically threw up his hands he

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couldn't explain it

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so i did feel it was important to trace

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the history

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of that which is really the the most

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famous

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most you know well-publicized abduction

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encounter

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before i get into john mack's story

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yes and i i was intrigued very intrigued

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and something that you have in common

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john mack won a pulitzer prize on his

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book

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on lawrence of arabia and that came with

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many ins and outs that kind of reflected

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on his own life

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yeah he um um he went to see

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you know lawrence of arabia the movie uh

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when

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we all did of that age uh 1963 i think

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it came out

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and he was intrigued by lawrence you

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know we all liked it as a movie but he

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saw something else he was a a

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professional psychiatrist and he saw

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something intriguing in lawrence's frame

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of mind now the movie distorted a lot of

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things and

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and john mack was interested in getting

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to the heart of it so he

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he went to um england he

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uh found the family of lawrence who he

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lawrence had died in a

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motorcycle accident um in the 30s

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but his relatives were still around and

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and mack interviewed them and he put

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this whole story together

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and he saw some parallels between

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himself

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and and lawrence maybe this was a little

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you know high pollutant but

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uh lawrence was a man of action who had

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a very um

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deep inner life and mac was always

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fascinated by the interplay between

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inner life and

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and action which he he was also

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you know known for he was brilliant

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intellectually but he was also

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interested in mixing it up uh and all

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these other

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um you know sometimes controversial

287
00:11:11,509 --> 00:11:09,360
areas

288
00:11:13,430 --> 00:11:11,519
so he saw lawrence as a kind of a role

289
00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:13,440
model and he did he said this himself he

290
00:11:16,870 --> 00:11:15,040
kind of patterned himself

291
00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:16,880
after lawrence the way lawrence did

292
00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:18,720
things a very smart man

293
00:11:25,829 --> 00:11:22,240
um who the movie notwithstanding

294
00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:25,839
was not a warmonger and was not a sadist

295
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:29,680
um he didn't revel in in in warfare and

296
00:11:33,269 --> 00:11:30,560
battle and

297
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:33,279
and murder um he was kind of turned off

298
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:34,160
by it

299
00:11:37,430 --> 00:11:36,959
but um mack found that very interesting

300
00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:37,440
that

301
00:11:42,790 --> 00:11:40,720
lawrence was actually a shy character

302
00:11:44,949 --> 00:11:42,800
who found himself in this pivotal role

303
00:11:45,829 --> 00:11:44,959
in history the arab revolt against the

304
00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:45,839
turks

305
00:11:52,230 --> 00:11:49,040
and you know uh mobilized the

306
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:52,240
the tribesmen for their freedom so so

307
00:11:54,389 --> 00:11:53,040
mack took

308
00:11:56,310 --> 00:11:54,399
you know lawrence as kind of a role

309
00:11:59,430 --> 00:11:56,320
model as a brave

310
00:12:02,150 --> 00:11:59,440
um uh you know leader

311
00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:02,160
who not afraid to plunge into unfamiliar

312
00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:05,360
territory which is what he did

313
00:12:09,030 --> 00:12:08,079
yes and getting into that unfamiliar

314
00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:09,040
territory

315
00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:12,480
and ufos i think it's important to make

316
00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:14,480
a distinction especially nowadays

317
00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:16,480
between ufos and aliens which you've

318
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:17,200
done

319
00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:19,279
but these objects are real aren't they

320
00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:21,440
and in at least as they're being seen

321
00:12:26,629 --> 00:12:24,639
and unidentified yeah that's a very very

322
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:26,639
important point ryan i'm really glad you

323
00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:27,680
brought it up

324
00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:31,040
because it's a big mistake to conflate

325
00:12:37,990 --> 00:12:35,200
uh ufos and aliens even though

326
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:38,000
john mack saw a relationship uh which

327
00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:38,880
there may be

328
00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:40,800
or may not be i mean we don't know it's

329
00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:41,920
a mystery but

330
00:12:46,949 --> 00:12:45,360
anyway um when you

331
00:12:49,030 --> 00:12:46,959
when we at the new york times were

332
00:12:52,069 --> 00:12:49,040
reporting on ufos we were very

333
00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:52,079
careful to stick to what we knew which

334
00:12:58,069 --> 00:12:54,880
was that these are unidentified objects

335
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:58,079
uh with um amazing aerodynamic

336
00:13:02,470 --> 00:12:59,279
capability

337
00:13:04,230 --> 00:13:02,480
uh flying at hypersonic speeds 13 000

338
00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:04,240
miles an hour or more

339
00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:06,880
able to function not only in the skies

340
00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:08,959
but underwater apparently

341
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:12,480
um and appear and disappear at will

342
00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:15,200
so there are many mysterious aspects to

343
00:13:20,069 --> 00:13:17,040
them all we know now and it's

344
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:20,079
a lot more than we knew a few years ago

345
00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:23,920
is that they seem to be physically real

346
00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:26,720
they have a physicality they're not

347
00:13:31,269 --> 00:13:28,720
archetypes they're not you know mental

348
00:13:33,269 --> 00:13:31,279
images they're not hallucinations

349
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:33,279
they have been caught on radar they've

350
00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:34,320
been caught on

351
00:13:39,030 --> 00:13:36,560
thermal imaging devices of the navy

352
00:13:42,629 --> 00:13:39,040
they've been eyeballed by pilots

353
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:42,639
so uh one thing we we can say pretty

354
00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:43,519
much for sure

355
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:46,240
is that they they exist which is a lot

356
00:13:49,269 --> 00:13:47,040
more

357
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:49,279
than we were able to say a few years ago

358
00:13:52,629 --> 00:13:50,480
now who's

359
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:52,639
behind them where do they come from why

360
00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:53,600
are they here

361
00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:56,639
those are all questions that um nobody

362
00:14:00,949 --> 00:13:58,240
can answer at this point

363
00:14:01,990 --> 00:14:00,959
and the smart people are not speculating

364
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:02,000
about that they're taking

365
00:14:07,509 --> 00:14:05,600
you know one step at a time and um

366
00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:07,519
uh you know and not jumping in

367
00:14:11,670 --> 00:14:09,680
conclusions so

368
00:14:14,069 --> 00:14:11,680
now what john mack did discover was that

369
00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:14,079
there was an association between ufos

370
00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:16,240
and alien experiences

371
00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:19,760
uh people would see ufos before they

372
00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:22,480
became aware of aliens materializing in

373
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:23,040
their

374
00:14:29,509 --> 00:14:26,399
whatever

375
00:14:33,269 --> 00:14:29,519
but that again is is is

376
00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:33,279
basically anecdotal and not uh

377
00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:36,720
verifiable like the existence of ufos is

378
00:14:42,949 --> 00:14:39,279
that has been established

379
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:42,959
yes yes it has and i'm glad you said

380
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:44,639
anecdotal because there's a lot of

381
00:14:51,430 --> 00:14:46,880
evidence that is not anecdotal and

382
00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:51,440
you broke a story in december of 2017

383
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:55,120
about a pentagon unit atip and

384
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:56,880
through the new york times with leslie

385
00:15:01,269 --> 00:14:59,440
keane and you also did a story on pilots

386
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:01,279
and materials a lot of information

387
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:03,120
that's classified can we go into a

388
00:15:06,069 --> 00:15:04,639
little bit of that i know

389
00:15:08,710 --> 00:15:06,079
you've probably gone into it a lot and

390
00:15:11,910 --> 00:15:08,720
are tired of it but it sure is amazing

391
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:11,920
yeah a lot of information is classified

392
00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:13,600
we did not really access that

393
00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:15,040
information we

394
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:18,720
we could not um and we did not

395
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:22,320
um but we really had no

396
00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:25,120
no access to that kind of information

397
00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:25,519
now

398
00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:27,920
for for whatever reason atep the

399
00:15:31,829 --> 00:15:28,880
advanced aero

400
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:31,839
aerospace threat identification program

401
00:15:35,829 --> 00:15:32,880
that we

402
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:35,839
um divulged in the new york times in

403
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:37,360
december 2017

404
00:15:41,590 --> 00:15:38,880
that was not classified it was not a

405
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:41,600
classified program and the navy videos

406
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:43,680
that we put out with that story

407
00:15:48,949 --> 00:15:47,040
that showed uh images of strange objects

408
00:15:52,230 --> 00:15:48,959
that the navy

409
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:52,240
you know caught on on gun cameras

410
00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:54,480
those were not classified videos i don't

411
00:15:58,389 --> 00:15:56,320
we we wouldn't have

412
00:15:59,829 --> 00:15:58,399
put out classified videos or at least

413
00:16:01,269 --> 00:15:59,839
not without consulting

414
00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:01,279
at a very high level at the new york

415
00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:03,040
times but we we never needed to do that

416
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:04,320
because this information was not

417
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:05,440
classified

418
00:16:09,509 --> 00:16:07,360
and as i say that's an entirely

419
00:16:11,509 --> 00:16:09,519
different situation when you're dealing

420
00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:11,519
with that and you could go to jail

421
00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:14,720
but you know disclosing com you know uh

422
00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:16,240
classified information

423
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:18,399
so we we're very careful to stay away

424
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:21,040
from that and to only report what is in

425
00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:22,240
the public domain

426
00:16:25,509 --> 00:16:24,320
what we were able to get all on the

427
00:16:28,310 --> 00:16:25,519
record

428
00:16:30,389 --> 00:16:28,320
talking to um high-level officials who

429
00:16:32,069 --> 00:16:30,399
were identified in the stories we didn't

430
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:32,079
you know use any

431
00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:33,410
background you know

432
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:35,360
[Music]

433
00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:37,680
information or unidentified sources

434
00:16:43,189 --> 00:16:39,279
which weakens the story

435
00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:43,199
very proud of that so um

436
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:45,199
so you know but there is classified

437
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:47,040
information out there we just haven't

438
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:50,320
uh haven't been able to get it you bet

439
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:52,720
and you really started something amazing

440
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:54,560
how all of this has opened up to the

441
00:16:59,509 --> 00:16:56,880
mainstream media

442
00:17:00,550 --> 00:16:59,519
something that i i just have to touch on

443
00:17:02,310 --> 00:17:00,560
for a moment

444
00:17:04,309 --> 00:17:02,320
from the book and i hope i'm not giving

445
00:17:06,549 --> 00:17:04,319
too much is the stories from all the

446
00:17:07,429 --> 00:17:06,559
kids that seem like they just can't be

447
00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:07,439
faked

448
00:17:11,829 --> 00:17:10,480
mac delves so deeply into

449
00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:11,839
many of these stories including the

450
00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:14,240
aerial school can we go a bit

451
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:17,600
into the children yeah that that's a

452
00:17:20,710 --> 00:17:18,000
very good

453
00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:20,720
point because uh mac listed all these

454
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:22,559
reasons why he thought

455
00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:26,400
the uh abduction stories were not fake

456
00:17:31,830 --> 00:17:29,840
um why he eventually believed

457
00:17:33,029 --> 00:17:31,840
that something had happened to these

458
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:33,039
people uh

459
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:35,360
on some level of reality it wasn't clear

460
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:37,520
that it was it was happening in our

461
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:39,120
conventional reality because you don't

462
00:17:42,070 --> 00:17:40,559
see it happening on the street in front

463
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:42,080
of you but it was happening

464
00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:45,600
somehow somewhere uh in in some way that

465
00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:46,960
mac considered real

466
00:17:50,070 --> 00:17:49,120
and one of the reasons he came to that

467
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:50,080
conclusion

468
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:52,559
was that little kids as as young as two

469
00:17:56,710 --> 00:17:54,640
years old who could barely speak

470
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:56,720
uh said things like you know little man

471
00:18:01,110 --> 00:17:58,000
take me up in the sky

472
00:18:02,310 --> 00:18:01,120
i fly in the sky so these kids you know

473
00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:02,320
were not reciting

474
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:04,080
material from books they had read or

475
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:05,600
movies they had seen

476
00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:07,679
um in that sense they were they were

477
00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:08,880
good witnesses

478
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:12,559
now when um it happened in

479
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:16,160
around 1990 i believe

480
00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:19,679
that a craft was seen

481
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:22,240
landing at or was reported to have

482
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:24,000
landed at a school

483
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:27,039
outside the capital of zimbabwe harare

484
00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:28,000
at a school

485
00:18:35,669 --> 00:18:32,400
a country school um a day school

486
00:18:37,510 --> 00:18:35,679
and 60 children at recess saw this

487
00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:37,520
saw colored balls in the sky and then

488
00:18:41,350 --> 00:18:39,280
they saw a craft landing and they saw

489
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:41,360
two beings come out

490
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:43,520
and the children describe these beings

491
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:44,960
and they've looked at each other the

492
00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:46,880
beings and the children and the kids got

493
00:18:57,510 --> 00:18:47,360
a

494
00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:57,520
drew pictures

495
00:19:01,350 --> 00:18:59,760
and they were interviewed on camera and

496
00:19:04,710 --> 00:19:01,360
their accounts were

497
00:19:06,549 --> 00:19:04,720
very convincing again as children um

498
00:19:08,230 --> 00:19:06,559
it's hard to imagine that they all got

499
00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:08,240
together and agreed to

500
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:10,720
you know conspire to tell a fabricated

501
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:11,520
story

502
00:19:15,990 --> 00:19:13,520
it was not a case of mass hysteria

503
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:16,000
because the kids were very thoughtful

504
00:19:20,630 --> 00:19:18,960
and uh basically saw the same things the

505
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:20,640
way they described it

506
00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:22,400
and described it you know as children

507
00:19:27,510 --> 00:19:24,880
would do very matter-of-factly and very

508
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:27,520
very straightforward so i went through

509
00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:30,320
those descriptions from max

510
00:19:35,190 --> 00:19:33,360
videotapes and audio tapes

511
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:35,200
and i found them very convincing it's

512
00:19:40,390 --> 00:19:37,120
probably one of the best

513
00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:40,400
documented you know cases of

514
00:19:45,750 --> 00:19:43,600
ufo landing and alien interactions that

515
00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:45,760
has come to light

516
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:47,520
as i said because these kids were good

517
00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:49,600
witnesses and because their

518
00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:53,280
their accounts of it afterwards were

519
00:19:57,510 --> 00:19:56,480
were taped now the actual event itself

520
00:19:59,830 --> 00:19:57,520
was not taped

521
00:20:01,430 --> 00:19:59,840
uh it was not caught on tape or camera

522
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:01,440
or photograph

523
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:04,480
which is kind of typical for these uh

524
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:07,440
events because for some reason they

525
00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:09,840
don't lend themselves to documentation

526
00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:11,600
that's part of the phenomenon you could

527
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:13,840
speculate on all kinds of reasons

528
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:16,799
are the aliens so smart that they defy

529
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:18,960
you know electronic reproduction

530
00:20:25,350 --> 00:20:22,799
um something always seems to go wrong

531
00:20:26,310 --> 00:20:25,360
um you know they asked mack about that

532
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:26,320
once

533
00:20:30,950 --> 00:20:29,120
how come all the teachers were away when

534
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:30,960
when when this thing landed and

535
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:34,240
the two beings came out did the aliens

536
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:35,760
plan it that way

537
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:37,840
and max said you know i'm not very good

538
00:20:45,029 --> 00:20:42,950
he couldn't give an answer what was

539
00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:45,039
going through the aliens minds but

540
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:47,200
it's a fact that there were no teachers

541
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:48,559
or at least i think

542
00:20:51,909 --> 00:20:51,520
subsequently um it came to light that

543
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:51,919
maybe

544
00:20:56,710 --> 00:20:54,880
one of at least one teacher was present

545
00:20:58,950 --> 00:20:56,720
that was not available that information

546
00:21:02,470 --> 00:20:58,960
originally but it's come out since

547
00:21:06,549 --> 00:21:02,480
but anyway teachers were not

548
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:06,559
widely present to confirm

549
00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:10,080
you know this strange event right

550
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:12,640
which makes it almost stranger and as an

551
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:13,600
investigator

552
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:16,559
and researcher max seemed to look under

553
00:21:21,029 --> 00:21:18,559
every rock so to speak

554
00:21:22,870 --> 00:21:21,039
and there are a lot of incidents kind of

555
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:22,880
sticking with the children of hybrid

556
00:21:28,149 --> 00:21:25,440
children which kind of delves into

557
00:21:29,029 --> 00:21:28,159
something i'd like to ask why is it that

558
00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:29,039
there are so many

559
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:32,960
intense i guess emphasis on sexual

560
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:34,720
reproduction experiments when it comes

561
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:37,120
to these ufos

562
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:39,200
well a lot of people one of the things

563
00:21:44,310 --> 00:21:40,799
that mac found

564
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:44,320
quite convincing was the consistency of

565
00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:45,520
the stories

566
00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:50,640
um so um a lot of different people in

567
00:21:53,830 --> 00:21:52,480
this case because of the subject matter

568
00:21:57,110 --> 00:21:53,840
women uh

569
00:21:59,110 --> 00:21:57,120
told similar stories that they were they

570
00:22:01,669 --> 00:21:59,120
you know encountered or became whoever

571
00:22:05,029 --> 00:22:01,679
ufo they were taken by

572
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:05,039
uh beings to uh a ship um

573
00:22:09,029 --> 00:22:07,520
they were put on a table that was

574
00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:09,039
generally described the same way

575
00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:11,120
some kind of an examining table and the

576
00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:12,159
light and the

577
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:14,400
craft was described kind of the same way

578
00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:15,760
when a brilliant white light

579
00:22:22,149 --> 00:22:18,880
no source of the light evident and then

580
00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:22,159
um these women told

581
00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:25,039
told the story that they had an

582
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:26,960
instrument put inside them and their

583
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:29,760
eggs were removed and men had sperm

584
00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:31,200
taken

585
00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:34,000
as they as they recounted and then later

586
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:35,679
they would be abducted again

587
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:38,640
and they were able to see or was

588
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:40,000
presented with what they were

589
00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:43,120
told were their hybrid children um then

590
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:45,280
they told vivid accounts of seeing test

591
00:22:49,669 --> 00:22:46,799
tubes of little

592
00:22:51,350 --> 00:22:49,679
you know fetus type beings and and

593
00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:51,360
actually grown-up children

594
00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:54,559
uh older that look sort of humanoid not

595
00:22:57,669 --> 00:22:55,760
quite human

596
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:57,679
uh hybrid children now these are the

597
00:23:03,190 --> 00:22:58,880
stories that that

598
00:23:06,789 --> 00:23:03,200
many women and men told

599
00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:06,799
so mack you know found that

600
00:23:11,350 --> 00:23:09,440
kind of interesting now there were also

601
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:11,360
so many different little details that

602
00:23:15,029 --> 00:23:13,440
differed from case to case so

603
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:15,039
it didn't seem that they were reading

604
00:23:20,230 --> 00:23:16,960
off some script and they were all

605
00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:20,240
parroting the same story so it was the

606
00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:22,400
consistency of the stories

607
00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:25,440
plus the details that were hard to

608
00:23:30,870 --> 00:23:27,840
imagine let alone make up because they

609
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:30,880
were so bizarre and wild but the

610
00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:34,480
people had very vivid memories or

611
00:23:37,190 --> 00:23:36,400
accounts of what these instruments

612
00:23:39,430 --> 00:23:37,200
looked like

613
00:23:41,510 --> 00:23:39,440
and the medical exams the pseudo-medical

614
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:41,520
exams that they were subjected to

615
00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:44,720
um kind of things that again you know

616
00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:46,559
you just wonder how anybody could make

617
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:49,120
that up in that level of detail

618
00:23:55,510 --> 00:23:53,039
so but the fact remains that nobody has

619
00:23:58,470 --> 00:23:55,520
a picture of these hybrid beings

620
00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:58,480
um none of them have have come around to

621
00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:58,799
be

622
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:00,720
tested there are people walking around

623
00:24:04,149 --> 00:24:02,880
who say they think that they believe

624
00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:04,159
they're hybrids

625
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:07,760
but um no um

626
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:10,320
you know dna tests or blood tests has

627
00:24:15,029 --> 00:24:11,440
confirmed that they're

628
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:15,039
different from anybody else um so

629
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:18,400
it's that's part of the mystery yes

630
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:21,440
and it's so mysterious it's

631
00:24:24,870 --> 00:24:23,279
very interesting very interesting i

632
00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:24,880
found the instances

633
00:24:30,789 --> 00:24:28,159
of the strange smells fascinating even

634
00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:30,799
whitley strieber tells a story about

635
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:32,000
this can we delve a little

636
00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:36,000
bit into the strange smells yeah

637
00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:39,120
that's an interesting aspect that people

638
00:24:44,230 --> 00:24:42,400
um who you know recalled

639
00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:44,240
consciously and under hypnotic

640
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:45,440
regression

641
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:48,960
being on the the spacecraft or

642
00:24:53,590 --> 00:24:52,559
craft of these beings um had particular

643
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:53,600
sensory

644
00:24:59,530 --> 00:24:57,600
memories um they many of them recalled a

645
00:25:00,630 --> 00:24:59,540
kind of a clammy

646
00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:00,640
[Music]

647
00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:04,000
feel to the air just an interesting

648
00:25:08,149 --> 00:25:04,960
detail

649
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:08,159
and the light as i said was kind of

650
00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:10,320
silvery and coming from all over not any

651
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:11,360
particular

652
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:15,440
light source so whitley strieber told

653
00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:18,720
who has one of the most amazing um

654
00:25:24,149 --> 00:25:20,960
stories because it's not necessarily an

655
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:24,159
abduction story it is that but it's also

656
00:25:28,149 --> 00:25:26,400
more than that and many of these stories

657
00:25:30,630 --> 00:25:28,159
are not strictly abduction stories

658
00:25:32,470 --> 00:25:30,640
they're encounter stories that don't

659
00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:32,480
that they deal with more than just being

660
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:34,799
you know taken on to a craft let's say

661
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:36,799
anyway whitney streeba who wrote

662
00:25:38,789 --> 00:25:38,400
communion which is one of the first

663
00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:38,799
books

664
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:42,880
recounting uh an abduction experience

665
00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:47,039
um tells in his book of a time when he

666
00:25:55,830 --> 00:25:48,159
was

667
00:25:57,510 --> 00:25:55,840
and um he heard a voice because these

668
00:25:58,470 --> 00:25:57,520
beings supposedly communicate by

669
00:26:00,630 --> 00:25:58,480
telepathy

670
00:26:02,149 --> 00:26:00,640
that's how peop you know people say how

671
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:02,159
come they speak english well

672
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:04,320
they don't really speak english but the

673
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:06,480
way people remember it the

674
00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:08,159
thoughts just pop into their head it's

675
00:26:13,029 --> 00:26:10,559
kind of a telepathic communication

676
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:13,039
so whitley strieber got the

677
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,799
communication in his head

678
00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:16,480
what can we do to make you stop

679
00:26:19,669 --> 00:26:18,240
screaming so he realized he'd been

680
00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:19,679
screaming and

681
00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:21,840
what popped into his head was a very

682
00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:23,679
strange thing again one of the details

683
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:24,960
that

684
00:26:28,310 --> 00:26:26,720
you wouldn't necessarily make up if you

685
00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:28,320
were making up a story

686
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:31,360
it's just so bizarre he said you could

687
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:33,200
let me smell you

688
00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:36,000
and with that he said the being uh you

689
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:37,039
know extended

690
00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:39,120
his or her arm i you know i think it was

691
00:26:43,110 --> 00:26:40,480
a female

692
00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:43,120
being he had the sense and he smelled

693
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:44,159
the

694
00:26:49,830 --> 00:26:47,360
like cardboard

695
00:26:51,029 --> 00:26:49,840
you know a sort of a musty smell but

696
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:51,039
quite distinctive

697
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:53,039
and it came back to him years later when

698
00:26:57,029 --> 00:26:54,480
he was trying to reconstruct the

699
00:27:00,470 --> 00:26:57,039
experience so it was like a sense memory

700
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:00,480
um anyway so

701
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:03,840
smell does figure into these stories

702
00:27:08,789 --> 00:27:06,960
and in a very interesting way

703
00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:08,799
yeah i find that just such an

704
00:27:12,950 --> 00:27:11,120
interesting little tidbit of information

705
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,960
and max seemed to delve into so many of

706
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:14,880
these little interesting things and

707
00:27:18,389 --> 00:27:17,279
challenged the dominant paradigm as if

708
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:18,399
on a mission

709
00:27:22,389 --> 00:27:21,600
he was ostracized criticized made fun of

710
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:22,399
i mean

711
00:27:26,149 --> 00:27:24,720
yet he succeeded where it seemed many

712
00:27:29,029 --> 00:27:26,159
failed and i

713
00:27:31,269 --> 00:27:29,039
what would you account for that well i

714
00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:31,279
think he had the intellectual firepower

715
00:27:34,789 --> 00:27:32,240
to

716
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:34,799
contradict the skeptics a lot of uh

717
00:27:39,269 --> 00:27:36,640
people were intimidated when

718
00:27:42,389 --> 00:27:39,279
you know uh scientists came forward and

719
00:27:44,789 --> 00:27:42,399
said this is not possible physicists and

720
00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:44,799
other psychiatrists and of course

721
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:46,640
everybody agrees including mac of course

722
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:48,000
it's not possible by

723
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:50,159
our understanding of what what our

724
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:51,440
reality is

725
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:52,720
you know i have a quote in the beginning

726
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:54,480
of my book the believer

727
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:56,240
from sir william crooks a sign of

728
00:28:02,070 --> 00:27:58,559
british scientist of the 1870s

729
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:02,080
who was sent to uh debunk um

730
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:05,200
a seance where musical instruments were

731
00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:06,799
playing themselves and

732
00:28:12,789 --> 00:28:10,480
people were um you know

733
00:28:14,389 --> 00:28:12,799
spirits of the dead were materializing

734
00:28:17,350 --> 00:28:14,399
and people were levitating

735
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:17,360
so he went to the seance william crooks

736
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:17,840
and

737
00:28:24,149 --> 00:28:22,000
could not

738
00:28:25,909 --> 00:28:24,159
explain them and he came back later and

739
00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:25,919
he said famously and as i said i have a

740
00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:26,799
quote in my book

741
00:28:31,350 --> 00:28:29,120
uh i never said it was possible i only

742
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:31,360
said it was true

743
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:33,120
um and i think that's a very good

744
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:35,200
formulation that everyone agrees that

745
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:37,679
these stories that people are telling

746
00:28:45,029 --> 00:28:41,120
and that mac was hearing were not

747
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:45,039
true you know real or true or possible

748
00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:46,960
in any sense of our understanding of

749
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:48,720
reality and yet

750
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:52,000
um he he went through all the

751
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:54,320
possible explanations to try to debunk

752
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:55,120
them

753
00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:58,399
mack himself and could not explain

754
00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:00,480
he could not come up with a hypothesis

755
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:02,000
that explained all these different

756
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:02,880
things

757
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:06,320
um so that included um

758
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:08,720
the consistency of the stories the fact

759
00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:10,480
that small children

760
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:12,880
were telling these stories that people

761
00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:14,240
from all walks of life

762
00:29:20,549 --> 00:29:17,440
were telling similar stories um

763
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:20,559
that in some cases they had marks on

764
00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:21,279
their bodies

765
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:22,559
afterwards that they didn't remember

766
00:29:27,430 --> 00:29:24,640
having beforehand in one case a

767
00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:27,440
quadriplegic who could not inflict any

768
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:29,120
injuries on himself because he couldn't

769
00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:31,520
move um

770
00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:33,520
uh in some cases the foliage was

771
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:34,880
disturbed outside

772
00:29:39,190 --> 00:29:36,880
in the in the field where people saw

773
00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:39,200
europol landing they

774
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:41,520
later found disturbance to the trees and

775
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:42,720
the grass

776
00:29:48,789 --> 00:29:45,840
so um you know

777
00:29:50,710 --> 00:29:48,799
all these things made mac think that

778
00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:50,720
there is fragmentary evidence

779
00:29:54,149 --> 00:29:52,720
and there's no better explanation it

780
00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:54,159
wasn't sleep paralysis

781
00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:55,520
because it wasn't always happening

782
00:30:00,070 --> 00:29:58,080
during sleep and night time

783
00:30:01,510 --> 00:30:00,080
uh it wasn't a nightmare because he knew

784
00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:01,520
what nightmares were

785
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:03,520
and these people said you know describe

786
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:05,919
them as happening in real life and the

787
00:30:09,269 --> 00:30:07,679
people in recounting them later

788
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:09,279
recounting these stories

789
00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:11,679
were so worked up what psychiatrists

790
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:12,880
called affect

791
00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:14,799
the way they present themselves in

792
00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:16,240
recounting something

793
00:30:20,149 --> 00:30:18,240
that he concluded they weren't making it

794
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:20,159
up they weren't fabricating

795
00:30:24,389 --> 00:30:22,559
they were really uh repeating a

796
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:24,399
traumatic experience they were crying

797
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:26,000
and weeping and cursing

798
00:30:29,430 --> 00:30:27,840
it was as if it was happening to them

799
00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:29,440
all over again

800
00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:31,520
so he said these people are not you know

801
00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:32,880
dissembling they're not

802
00:30:36,149 --> 00:30:35,200
you know trying to trick me so he put

803
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:36,159
all this stuff together

804
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:38,399
and he said i have no better explanation

805
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:39,520
for these

806
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:42,080
um experiences than what the people

807
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:43,760
themselves said they were

808
00:30:47,669 --> 00:30:46,159
so somehow in some you know in some

809
00:30:49,909 --> 00:30:47,679
level of reality

810
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:49,919
these things had happened so that's

811
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:55,590
and i'm really glad that you said levels

812
00:30:59,430 --> 00:30:57,200
of reality because

813
00:31:02,070 --> 00:30:59,440
there's a lot of these levels of reality

814
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:02,080
that mac delved into and

815
00:31:05,269 --> 00:31:03,600
there was a quote some something like

816
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:05,279
there's a possibility no greater

817
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:06,640
question for people

818
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:09,600
is life after death leslie keane you

819
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:11,360
worked with her what was it like

820
00:31:15,269 --> 00:31:12,960
to work with her and i also want to

821
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:15,279
point out if possible

822
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:18,240
this life after death phenomenon and how

823
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:18,640
mac

824
00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:22,159
delved into that okay um

825
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:24,640
anyway yes leslie kane she pronounces it

826
00:31:27,269 --> 00:31:25,360
kane

827
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:27,279
um i worked with her closely because she

828
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:29,679
was the one who heard about the

829
00:31:33,110 --> 00:31:32,480
this pentagon unit atip uh in the in the

830
00:31:35,669 --> 00:31:33,120
first place

831
00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:35,679
and found out that the pentagon despite

832
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:36,320
its

833
00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:39,200
many decades of denials after after blue

834
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:40,000
book

835
00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:42,640
um was actually continuing to

836
00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:43,679
investigate

837
00:31:49,669 --> 00:31:46,799
uh ufo sightings and

838
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:49,679
and um encounters with navy ships and

839
00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:50,799
jets so

840
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:53,120
she heard about uh this in washington

841
00:31:55,990 --> 00:31:54,640
and came back and

842
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:56,000
together we brought to the new york

843
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:57,840
times and that's how the story we broke

844
00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:00,000
the story that this unit

845
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:02,399
existed and that lou elizondo the head

846
00:32:05,350 --> 00:32:04,080
of it was resigning because he wasn't

847
00:32:08,470 --> 00:32:05,360
getting enough support

848
00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:08,480
from the from the defense department um

849
00:32:12,389 --> 00:32:10,159
so anyway so two different things so

850
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:12,399
leslie

851
00:32:18,230 --> 00:32:15,600
was also working on um

852
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:18,240
a book about survival of consciousness

853
00:32:21,029 --> 00:32:19,679
life after death but that

854
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:21,039
really had nothing to do with john

855
00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:22,720
mack's interest uh

856
00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:26,559
john mack um and this goes back

857
00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:30,559
25 years um was interested

858
00:32:37,430 --> 00:32:35,279
in um survival consciousness after he

859
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:37,440
uh he was you know researched and was

860
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:38,640
exploring

861
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:40,960
uh alien abduction he got into other

862
00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:42,159
spiritual

863
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:44,880
areas um things that were hard to

864
00:32:49,029 --> 00:32:45,440
explain

865
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:49,039
in anomalous uh you know situations

866
00:32:54,789 --> 00:32:53,440
um the grail legend he was very

867
00:32:58,470 --> 00:32:54,799
interested in

868
00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:58,480
um the bigfoot legend crop circles he

869
00:33:02,310 --> 00:32:59,919
went to england to

870
00:33:04,630 --> 00:33:02,320
investigate the energy that people

871
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:04,640
associated with crop circles which

872
00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:06,960
um seem to have been made by you know

873
00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:08,880
alien intelligence

874
00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:10,960
although there were some hoaxes as well

875
00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:13,200
anyway so he branched out

876
00:33:17,350 --> 00:33:14,640
to look at other things and one of the

877
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:17,360
things he was very interested in

878
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:20,720
was survival of consciousness because um

879
00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:22,720
he became friendly with a young woman

880
00:33:26,389 --> 00:33:24,640
who was very brilliant named elizabeth

881
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:26,399
targ

882
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:30,159
who had all kinds of um psychic gifts

883
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:32,640
and was and it was a psychiatrist

884
00:33:35,909 --> 00:33:33,760
herself

885
00:33:37,750 --> 00:33:35,919
very brilliant and was studying the

886
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:37,760
effect of distant healing on aids

887
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:39,519
patients and she found

888
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:42,720
in one famous experiment that aids

889
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:43,440
patients

890
00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:46,559
who were prayed over or prayed for

891
00:33:50,789 --> 00:33:49,360
um did better than those who were not

892
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:50,799
prayed for

893
00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:54,159
so um but as it happened she

894
00:33:59,990 --> 00:33:57,360
um developed the same kind of cancer

895
00:34:00,789 --> 00:34:00,000
she was studying brain cancer and died

896
00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:00,799
from it

897
00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:05,360
and after she died um

898
00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:08,000
people around her said that her spirit

899
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:08,560
or she

900
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:11,520
manifested in some ways to convince them

901
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:13,440
that she was still

902
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:15,839
in touch with them and with this world

903
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:17,040
and mac was very

904
00:34:20,230 --> 00:34:18,720
intrigued by that and he decided he was

905
00:34:23,669 --> 00:34:20,240
going to do a book on that

906
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:23,679
um as his final project after alien

907
00:34:26,389 --> 00:34:24,639
abduction

908
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:26,399
and he was killed he was run over in

909
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:28,240
london before he could

910
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:31,119
uh get forward that book but he was very

911
00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:32,639
interested in that and he

912
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:34,560
was you know sort of curious himself

913
00:34:38,710 --> 00:34:36,399
what would happen after to him

914
00:34:40,310 --> 00:34:38,720
after death so he told people things

915
00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:40,320
like well maybe i can do better work

916
00:34:43,750 --> 00:34:41,760
from the other side and

917
00:34:44,869 --> 00:34:43,760
they said oh john don't don't talk like

918
00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:44,879
that you know

919
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:48,240
um and at the very end of my book

920
00:34:54,710 --> 00:34:51,839
i talk about john mack materializing

921
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:54,720
or so so you know people around him said

922
00:35:01,349 --> 00:34:57,280
on a number of occasions

923
00:35:03,589 --> 00:35:01,359
so you know i don't give it the same

924
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:03,599
prominence in the book as other things

925
00:35:07,109 --> 00:35:04,800
because i think that

926
00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:07,119
again it's very anecdotal there's no way

927
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:09,760
to prove it

928
00:35:15,829 --> 00:35:13,200
but these are stories people tell

929
00:35:16,390 --> 00:35:15,839
and they tell them some detail and again

930
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:16,400
there's a

931
00:35:19,589 --> 00:35:18,000
somewhat of a consistency to these

932
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:19,599
stories and not more

933
00:35:23,589 --> 00:35:21,920
you know more than one person told a

934
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:23,599
similar story of seeing

935
00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:27,119
john mack's spirit coming back so

936
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:29,119
that was the last thing he was working

937
00:35:34,630 --> 00:35:31,920
on before he died

938
00:35:36,390 --> 00:35:34,640
wow it's so fascinating and i found it

939
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:36,400
fascinating that mac once said

940
00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:38,560
we can all go at any time and i i could

941
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:40,480
walk out onto the street and be hit by a

942
00:35:43,829 --> 00:35:41,440
car

943
00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:43,839
going out going into something slightly

944
00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:44,720
different but yet

945
00:35:48,630 --> 00:35:47,119
along the ufo phenomenon and the

946
00:35:50,230 --> 00:35:48,640
government a lot of people

947
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:50,240
and folks just don't trust the

948
00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:51,599
government especially with the stuff

949
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:53,200
coming out lately but when the

950
00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:53,920
government

951
00:35:59,589 --> 00:35:56,480
is honestly saying we don't know what

952
00:36:02,150 --> 00:35:59,599
these things are and

953
00:36:04,230 --> 00:36:02,160
what are we to make to make of this well

954
00:36:06,870 --> 00:36:04,240
the government has a long history

955
00:36:07,990 --> 00:36:06,880
of being duplicitous there's no doubt

956
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:08,000
about that

957
00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:12,960
um in the in the 1950s there was an

958
00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:14,560
actual cia campaign

959
00:36:21,109 --> 00:36:17,760
to discredit uh ufologists

960
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:21,119
uh people who followed you know ufos

961
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:24,880
uh to paint them as communist

962
00:36:30,390 --> 00:36:28,000
threats you know subversives um

963
00:36:31,030 --> 00:36:30,400
that because they were challenging the

964
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:31,040
um

965
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:34,640
you know the official order and they uh

966
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:36,720
a lot of reasons but the government was

967
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:38,000
um

968
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:40,480
either did not want this news out didn't

969
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:42,320
want uh they wanted to control the

970
00:36:45,430 --> 00:36:43,119
narrative

971
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:45,440
they were afraid that uh you know what

972
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:47,520
would how would the public react if they

973
00:36:49,589 --> 00:36:48,160
were

974
00:36:51,109 --> 00:36:49,599
if they learned that there was something

975
00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:51,119
in the sky that the government couldn't

976
00:36:55,589 --> 00:36:52,720
control or explain

977
00:36:57,349 --> 00:36:55,599
so for for many reasons and some of

978
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:57,359
which were national security because the

979
00:37:02,790 --> 00:36:59,520
government was afraid that whatever

980
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:02,800
technology this was up there um

981
00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:04,800
might fall into the hands of our enemies

982
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:08,400
on earth the russians the chinese

983
00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:10,640
so for a lot of reasons the government

984
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:13,040
was very wary of this information

985
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:15,520
and didn't want it to come out so they

986
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:18,000
did disinformation they planted false

987
00:37:21,109 --> 00:37:18,960
stories

988
00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:21,119
there's a whole history of it the

989
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:22,560
government did some other things that

990
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:23,520
were pretty heinous

991
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:26,640
like the mk ultra experiments where they

992
00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:27,359
gave

993
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:31,119
lsd to unwitting uh you know victims

994
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:34,480
uh to test things so the government

995
00:37:38,710 --> 00:37:36,000
earned its reputation for

996
00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:38,720
being untrustworthy in this field and

997
00:37:45,109 --> 00:37:40,000
and

998
00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:45,119
not a mystery that you know people

999
00:37:49,589 --> 00:37:46,800
distrusted the

1000
00:37:50,069 --> 00:37:49,599
uh the you know the actions of the

1001
00:37:52,950 --> 00:37:50,079
government

1002
00:37:54,790 --> 00:37:52,960
in this area um plus you know the

1003
00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:54,800
government was very quick to debunk all

1004
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:56,720
these sightings

1005
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:58,560
and people who who had served in the

1006
00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:00,160
military and knew

1007
00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:02,320
what planes and the planet venus looked

1008
00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:03,440
like i

1009
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:06,400
did not want to be told that you are

1010
00:38:10,790 --> 00:38:07,680
seeing a weather balloon

1011
00:38:13,589 --> 00:38:10,800
or you are seeing the planet venus

1012
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:13,599
and these people knew too much to know

1013
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:15,359
that what they had seen

1014
00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:18,160
could not be explained away as easily as

1015
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:20,160
the government was insisting

1016
00:38:25,589 --> 00:38:23,280
so so now why is the government being

1017
00:38:27,430 --> 00:38:25,599
more forthcoming well i think we at the

1018
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:27,440
new york times had a role in changing

1019
00:38:33,910 --> 00:38:30,720
the paradigm i think we made it

1020
00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:33,920
safe for mainstream publications to uh

1021
00:38:39,030 --> 00:38:35,599
consider the evidence of

1022
00:38:42,069 --> 00:38:39,040
of ufos uh you know being

1023
00:38:44,950 --> 00:38:42,079
physically present um

1024
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:44,960
i think uh that people in the government

1025
00:38:52,230 --> 00:38:45,359
and

1026
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:52,240
see more of this information come out

1027
00:38:59,109 --> 00:38:56,480
i don't think it's a plot to you know to

1028
00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:59,119
uh it's not being manipulated this news

1029
00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:00,400
because we got the news

1030
00:39:04,630 --> 00:39:02,800
very through a result of hard digging

1031
00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:04,640
nobody fed it to us

1032
00:39:08,470 --> 00:39:06,640
um i mean you you know you can come up

1033
00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:08,480
with all kinds of conspiracy theories

1034
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:10,880
because you can't prove a negative but

1035
00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:11,760
um

1036
00:39:15,589 --> 00:39:13,760
i have found no evidence that you know

1037
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:15,599
we were manipulated into

1038
00:39:19,349 --> 00:39:17,359
coming out with a story because now is

1039
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,359
the time the government wanted it out

1040
00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:21,359
i think it just accumulated evidence

1041
00:39:26,069 --> 00:39:23,520
accumulated and we were able to break it

1042
00:39:27,349 --> 00:39:26,079
by people who came who happen to be in a

1043
00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:27,359
good position to

1044
00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:28,880
provide the information at the right

1045
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:30,880
time so

1046
00:39:36,790 --> 00:39:34,960
um i think the

1047
00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:36,800
the needle has moved you know the weight

1048
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:38,880
of evidence has shifted

1049
00:39:41,990 --> 00:39:41,200
the government now in a big step the

1050
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:42,000
navy has said

1051
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:44,400
it wants sailors and pilots to come

1052
00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:45,839
forward with information which they

1053
00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:47,440
never did before they would

1054
00:39:50,790 --> 00:39:48,880
tell them not to it would hurt their

1055
00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:50,800
careers so there's been a lot of

1056
00:39:55,589 --> 00:39:52,000
progress made

1057
00:39:57,589 --> 00:39:55,599
um it's step by step um

1058
00:39:59,109 --> 00:39:57,599
so we don't know where it's it's going

1059
00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:59,119
to end up and i don't know what you know

1060
00:40:02,230 --> 00:39:59,839
what what this

1061
00:40:02,870 --> 00:40:02,240
uap report task force report is going to

1062
00:40:04,470 --> 00:40:02,880
say

1063
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:04,480
if it's going to even come out on time

1064
00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:06,640
next month um

1065
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:09,760
so there are a lot of questions but um

1066
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:10,560
uh

1067
00:40:14,069 --> 00:40:13,040
you know i i think i the government is

1068
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:14,079
becoming

1069
00:40:18,550 --> 00:40:17,040
uh more forthcoming because of these

1070
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:18,560
series of steps i just

1071
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:21,599
outlined yes absolutely

1072
00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:24,640
and along the lines of conspiracy and

1073
00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:26,480
a part of the book that actually made me

1074
00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:29,359
cry was that about john mack being run

1075
00:40:33,589 --> 00:40:31,520
over by a drunk driver in london

1076
00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:33,599
he had a very tragic death and many

1077
00:40:36,630 --> 00:40:35,680
believe this was a conspiracy and he was

1078
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:36,640
taken out

1079
00:40:42,470 --> 00:40:40,000
can you clarify what actually occurred

1080
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:42,480
yeah now as a you know in in the course

1081
00:40:47,910 --> 00:40:45,359
of my research i got access to the

1082
00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:47,920
uh london police reports the witness

1083
00:40:52,230 --> 00:40:49,040
reports

1084
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:52,240
uh the story of the guy who ran him down

1085
00:40:56,630 --> 00:40:55,200
and i debunked in my view anyway

1086
00:40:59,349 --> 00:40:56,640
successfully debunked

1087
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:59,359
any suggestion that he was assassinated

1088
00:41:03,829 --> 00:41:00,560
that this was a

1089
00:41:04,630 --> 00:41:03,839
premeditated attack the man who ran him

1090
00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:04,640
over

1091
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:08,319
was a charity worker uh who had

1092
00:41:15,910 --> 00:41:14,630
you know making red poppies for a world

1093
00:41:19,349 --> 00:41:15,920
war one

1094
00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:19,359
um you know charity drive every year i

1095
00:41:23,030 --> 00:41:21,359
mean it's a veteran's charity drive long

1096
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:23,040
after world war one but it started in

1097
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:24,160
world war one

1098
00:41:30,390 --> 00:41:27,359
uh the red poppy movement so he uh was

1099
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:30,400
at a you know veterans uh

1100
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:33,200
office with other vets you know making

1101
00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:35,760
these red poppies to distribute to

1102
00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:38,800
generate money for the charity and

1103
00:41:43,589 --> 00:41:41,760
they were serving uh shandy which is uh

1104
00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:43,599
beer with um

1105
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:46,640
uh fruit juice and he had too much of it

1106
00:41:50,309 --> 00:41:48,640
and he was driving back late at night

1107
00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:50,319
and john max stepped out of the

1108
00:41:54,150 --> 00:41:52,960
underground the subway he did what many

1109
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:54,160
america

1110
00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:57,119
left and this guy was coming along and

1111
00:41:59,829 --> 00:41:58,640
mack just stepped out in front of him

1112
00:42:02,630 --> 00:41:59,839
and that was it

1113
00:42:03,829 --> 00:42:02,640
um and they interviewed him at length uh

1114
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:03,839
the driver

1115
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:07,119
and i have those reports and one of the

1116
00:42:10,870 --> 00:42:09,440
conspiracy theories was that another man

1117
00:42:14,550 --> 00:42:10,880
named john mack

1118
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:14,560
was um run over at the same time

1119
00:42:18,309 --> 00:42:16,400
showing that you know john max were

1120
00:42:19,430 --> 00:42:18,319
being targeted and they got the wrong

1121
00:42:21,990 --> 00:42:19,440
one

1122
00:42:23,910 --> 00:42:22,000
i think that's a myth i perhaps somebody

1123
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:23,920
named john mack was run down somewhere

1124
00:42:28,069 --> 00:42:24,960
you know you can't

1125
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:28,079
disprove a negative but i found

1126
00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:31,599
absolutely no uh confirmation that he

1127
00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:33,760
was targeted in any way there were a lot

1128
00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:35,040
of people angry at him there were a lot

1129
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:35,680
of people who

1130
00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:37,520
we got him as a hero that's

1131
00:42:42,550 --> 00:42:39,040
unquestionable but

1132
00:42:44,230 --> 00:42:42,560
um he was not targeted that i could find

1133
00:42:46,309 --> 00:42:44,240
now there was one interesting thing that

1134
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:46,319
did happen that i put in my book

1135
00:42:50,069 --> 00:42:49,520
um one of his fellow psychiatrists a

1136
00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:50,079
young

1137
00:42:56,710 --> 00:42:53,839
protege happened to be in um

1138
00:42:58,470 --> 00:42:56,720
saint peter st petersburg russia at just

1139
00:43:01,829 --> 00:42:58,480
around the time mack was

1140
00:43:04,630 --> 00:43:01,839
in london and this protege

1141
00:43:06,309 --> 00:43:04,640
uh wesley boyd uh was driving from the

1142
00:43:08,870 --> 00:43:06,319
airport with his wife

1143
00:43:09,910 --> 00:43:08,880
uh to a conference in in saint

1144
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:09,920
petersburg

1145
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:11,440
and he looked and boyd looked out the

1146
00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:13,200
window of the cab and he saw a guy being

1147
00:43:16,870 --> 00:43:14,160
run over

1148
00:43:18,710 --> 00:43:16,880
pedestrian by another car and it was

1149
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:18,720
just about the time john mack was run

1150
00:43:22,550 --> 00:43:19,280
over

1151
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:22,560
in um in london so that was

1152
00:43:27,510 --> 00:43:25,200
the kind of synchronicity that popped up

1153
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:27,520
again and again in my book

1154
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:30,960
that is very strange um and

1155
00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:33,839
um but it has nothing to do with a plot

1156
00:43:39,030 --> 00:43:35,680
against john mack

1157
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:39,040
right and thank you for clarifying that

1158
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:41,040
you had access and you mentioned this to

1159
00:43:44,309 --> 00:43:42,079
a lot of files

1160
00:43:46,150 --> 00:43:44,319
and among those files you had access to

1161
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:46,160
personal files

1162
00:43:51,510 --> 00:43:49,200
how in the world did john mack live

1163
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:51,520
apparently two lives a very professional

1164
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:52,800
life yet

1165
00:43:56,390 --> 00:43:54,960
a very kind of by the mainstream

1166
00:43:58,470 --> 00:43:56,400
considered an out there

1167
00:44:00,069 --> 00:43:58,480
life researching with the best of the

1168
00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:00,079
best at the time

1169
00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:03,200
how was this so accepted by friends

1170
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:05,440
family and colleagues

1171
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:08,079
well he was a human being and he had all

1172
00:44:11,910 --> 00:44:08,480
the

1173
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:11,920
foibles of a human being as i point out

1174
00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:14,160
in my book

1175
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:16,480
he he lost his mother at age eight and a

1176
00:44:19,910 --> 00:44:18,240
half months his mother died his birth

1177
00:44:22,950 --> 00:44:19,920
mother died of

1178
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:22,960
appendicitis uh it was a very traumatic

1179
00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:24,960
event for a young child to suddenly lose

1180
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:26,400
his mother of course he had no

1181
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:28,160
understanding of why she was taken away

1182
00:44:31,829 --> 00:44:29,200
like that

1183
00:44:33,109 --> 00:44:31,839
penicillin had been invented at that

1184
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:33,119
time just then

1185
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:36,480
around 1930 but was not in common use

1186
00:44:42,069 --> 00:44:39,599
so they couldn't save her so he

1187
00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:42,079
he was deeply traumatized and he spent

1188
00:44:45,270 --> 00:44:42,880
his whole life

1189
00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:45,280
sort of missing his mother now his

1190
00:44:49,349 --> 00:44:46,400
father

1191
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:49,359
pretty quickly remarried another

1192
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:51,040
professor's father was a professor he

1193
00:44:54,150 --> 00:44:51,920
remarried a

1194
00:44:55,510 --> 00:44:54,160
woman who was a professor who was very

1195
00:44:58,390 --> 00:44:55,520
eminent in her own right

1196
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:58,400
and who had had a daughter from her

1197
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:59,119
previous

1198
00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:01,359
marriage her she was a widow her husband

1199
00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:03,040
that committed suicide during the great

1200
00:45:07,270 --> 00:45:04,079
depression

1201
00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:07,280
anyway um so mack was conflicted in

1202
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:09,200
mother issues let's say

1203
00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:12,000
and he spent a lot of time searching for

1204
00:45:15,430 --> 00:45:12,960
a missing

1205
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:15,440
female presence in his life now that

1206
00:45:19,349 --> 00:45:16,480
took the form of

1207
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:19,359
some romances in addition to his

1208
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:20,480
marriage to

1209
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:22,720
sally a wonderful woman who kept faith

1210
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:25,119
with him throughout his life and who he

1211
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:28,240
uh deeply loved and throughout although

1212
00:45:32,710 --> 00:45:29,040
he

1213
00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:32,720
strayed uh from you know faithfulness in

1214
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:33,760
his marriage

1215
00:45:37,829 --> 00:45:36,720
um so he did have some uh some love

1216
00:45:41,670 --> 00:45:37,839
affairs which i

1217
00:45:42,790 --> 00:45:41,680
go into in the book um uh he was a flesh

1218
00:45:46,470 --> 00:45:42,800
and blood person

1219
00:45:48,309 --> 00:45:46,480
he had his weaknesses he was naive uh he

1220
00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:48,319
he said things to newspaper people that

1221
00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:50,240
he shouldn't have said because uh

1222
00:45:53,349 --> 00:45:51,760
you have to be very careful how you deal

1223
00:45:54,069 --> 00:45:53,359
with the press and he was he was naive

1224
00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:54,079
about that

1225
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:56,640
he got hoaxed once by a woman who

1226
00:46:03,349 --> 00:45:59,760
presented herself as a

1227
00:46:06,390 --> 00:46:03,359
abductee and was really trying to uh

1228
00:46:09,030 --> 00:46:06,400
um you know um

1229
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:09,040
uh pull the wool over his eyes and you

1230
00:46:12,309 --> 00:46:09,760
know

1231
00:46:13,990 --> 00:46:12,319
told a story that wasn't what was only

1232
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:14,000
partly true at least so maybe

1233
00:46:20,710 --> 00:46:18,079
uh partly false but partly true she was

1234
00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:20,720
a real abductee mac thought but she told

1235
00:47:02,630 --> 00:46:21,119
a

1236
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:02,640
the greek heroes did

1237
00:47:09,589 --> 00:47:05,680
um and one of these was his

1238
00:47:13,349 --> 00:47:09,599
uh um you know his weakness for

1239
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:13,359
for for um um

1240
00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:16,640
you know for fame

1241
00:47:22,549 --> 00:47:20,079
also i mean he uh he was very

1242
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:22,559
uh happy with the attention he was

1243
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:23,520
getting

1244
00:47:29,430 --> 00:47:27,040
um perhaps that

1245
00:47:30,069 --> 00:47:29,440
you know he let down his guard because

1246
00:47:33,349 --> 00:47:30,079
of that

1247
00:47:33,589 --> 00:47:33,359
uh etc he you know he had delusions of

1248
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:33,599
him

1249
00:47:37,349 --> 00:47:35,839
of the ability he had to control the

1250
00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:37,359
scenario which

1251
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:40,880
he wasn't always able to do so anyway um

1252
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:43,200
and i i could see that from his from his

1253
00:47:48,549 --> 00:47:45,520
uh his journals that i had access to

1254
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:48,559
and his um uh therapy

1255
00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:50,720
sessions which he taped and which i got

1256
00:47:54,309 --> 00:47:53,520
access to like every psychiatrist he had

1257
00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:54,319
to

1258
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:56,720
uh you know go through a lot of

1259
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:58,880
self-analysis and he taped some of those

1260
00:48:01,430 --> 00:47:59,760
sessions

1261
00:48:03,589 --> 00:48:01,440
a bunch of them and i got access i

1262
00:48:05,910 --> 00:48:03,599
talked to his therapist afterwards

1263
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:05,920
um so i i think i had a pretty good

1264
00:48:11,349 --> 00:48:07,040
window into his

1265
00:48:14,870 --> 00:48:11,359
into his psyche yeah i think so

1266
00:48:15,510 --> 00:48:14,880
amazing an interesting thing is that he

1267
00:48:18,870 --> 00:48:15,520
did

1268
00:48:21,510 --> 00:48:18,880
and he was naive harvard

1269
00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:21,520
tried to prove things against mack and

1270
00:48:23,910 --> 00:48:23,599
he proved that he wasn't doing anything

1271
00:48:25,510 --> 00:48:23,920
wrong

1272
00:48:27,670 --> 00:48:25,520
can we go into that a little bit i found

1273
00:48:30,549 --> 00:48:27,680
that so fascinating

1274
00:48:31,510 --> 00:48:30,559
yeah well um he he rubbed harvard the

1275
00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:31,520
wrong way

1276
00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:32,960
because first of all he had written a

1277
00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:35,280
best-selling book and and made some

1278
00:48:39,030 --> 00:48:36,079
money

1279
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:39,040
and he had he rose above his academic

1280
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:41,119
colleagues in that sense and

1281
00:48:45,270 --> 00:48:43,440
academia being what it is it excited

1282
00:48:49,270 --> 00:48:45,280
some jealousies no doubt

1283
00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:49,280
um number a number of his experiencer

1284
00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:52,000
uh patients or subjects they were both

1285
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:52,640
um

1286
00:49:00,829 --> 00:48:59,680
you know treatment uh to to go with him

1287
00:49:04,309 --> 00:49:00,839
so he

1288
00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:04,319
he um alienated some colleagues who

1289
00:49:08,549 --> 00:49:07,520
saw you know their people leaving him

1290
00:49:10,790 --> 00:49:08,559
from for mac

1291
00:49:12,069 --> 00:49:10,800
so he had a lot of he dealt with some

1292
00:49:14,390 --> 00:49:12,079
professional jealousy

1293
00:49:15,589 --> 00:49:14,400
and harvard was embarrassed by the high

1294
00:49:18,470 --> 00:49:15,599
profile that

1295
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:18,480
mac had achieved on you know in a very

1296
00:49:23,109 --> 00:49:20,000
controversial field he'd been on

1297
00:49:24,710 --> 00:49:23,119
oprah been on a lot of television show

1298
00:49:25,990 --> 00:49:24,720
other television shows he'd been in

1299
00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:26,000
magazines

1300
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:29,680
and so and there were people at harvard

1301
00:49:34,870 --> 00:49:31,839
said you know he's giving us a bad

1302
00:49:36,710 --> 00:49:34,880
uh you know reputation where harvard has

1303
00:49:39,750 --> 00:49:36,720
a long and storied history

1304
00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:39,760
actually harvard uh was no stranger to

1305
00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:42,240
uh um unconventional research i mean

1306
00:49:48,549 --> 00:49:44,880
william james the father of psychology

1307
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:48,559
um was talking about seances and uh

1308
00:49:52,069 --> 00:49:50,400
mystical experiences at harvard a

1309
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:52,079
hundred years ago and

1310
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:54,800
harv was very proud of william james so

1311
00:49:57,910 --> 00:49:56,000
you know it's nothing that harvard

1312
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:57,920
hadn't dealt with before but max sort of

1313
00:50:01,349 --> 00:49:58,400
rubbed them

1314
00:50:01,829 --> 00:50:01,359
the wrong way and he was a bit arrogant

1315
00:50:05,030 --> 00:50:01,839
and

1316
00:50:06,309 --> 00:50:05,040
um he didn't inform harvard until it was

1317
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:06,319
a little bit too late

1318
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:08,240
uh what he was doing although was no

1319
00:50:11,270 --> 00:50:09,599
secret he was actually speaking at

1320
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:11,280
harvard to harvard audiences so it

1321
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:13,760
wasn't like he was tiptoeing around them

1322
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:15,520
but for all the reasons that you'd

1323
00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:17,680
expect an institution like harvard

1324
00:50:23,109 --> 00:50:21,280
um they took a miss

1325
00:50:26,150 --> 00:50:23,119
and they said they needed to investigate

1326
00:50:29,109 --> 00:50:26,160
his methods so

1327
00:50:31,109 --> 00:50:29,119
mac was again naive he went into these

1328
00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:31,119
to this investigating committee

1329
00:50:34,610 --> 00:50:32,400
uh thinking he was just going to be

1330
00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:34,620
talking to colleagues

1331
00:50:39,190 --> 00:50:36,000
[Music]

1332
00:50:41,270 --> 00:50:39,200
and of course he realized

1333
00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:41,280
later that he needed professional

1334
00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:43,280
representation it was not

1335
00:50:48,349 --> 00:50:46,000
um just a chat among colleagues he was

1336
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:48,359
being subject to a

1337
00:50:51,270 --> 00:50:50,160
quasi-disciplinary procedure although

1338
00:50:54,549 --> 00:50:51,280
they insisted

1339
00:50:56,870 --> 00:50:54,559
it was not disciplinary but essentially

1340
00:50:58,150 --> 00:50:56,880
it could have resulted in him being

1341
00:51:01,030 --> 00:50:58,160
disciplined anyway

1342
00:51:02,230 --> 00:51:01,040
he got himself two cracker jack lawyers

1343
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:02,240
um

1344
00:51:06,390 --> 00:51:04,640
and uh danny danny sheehan who had

1345
00:51:07,589 --> 00:51:06,400
investigated the iran contra

1346
00:51:10,069 --> 00:51:07,599
arms deal under the reagan

1347
00:51:12,630 --> 00:51:10,079
administration and he represented the

1348
00:51:16,630 --> 00:51:12,640
karen silkwood family after her

1349
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:16,640
uh plutonium poisoning disclosures

1350
00:51:21,510 --> 00:51:20,240
and um he investigated the ku klux klan

1351
00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:21,520
and the other lawyer

1352
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:24,400
mac got was uh eric mcleish who had

1353
00:51:27,190 --> 00:51:26,240
broken the priests abuse scandal in

1354
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:27,200
boston

1355
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:30,400
so two really hot shot lawyers who

1356
00:51:34,390 --> 00:51:32,800
realized that they were going to hold

1357
00:51:35,270 --> 00:51:34,400
harvard's feet to the fire and make

1358
00:51:37,030 --> 00:51:35,280
harvard prove

1359
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:37,040
that mac had done something wrong which

1360
00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:38,400
he really hadn't

1361
00:51:43,109 --> 00:51:41,520
and eventually uh succeeded in getting

1362
00:51:46,230 --> 00:51:43,119
you know there were no charges

1363
00:51:48,790 --> 00:51:46,240
against him harvard just said please be

1364
00:51:49,750 --> 00:51:48,800
a little less enthusiastic and max said

1365
00:51:51,829 --> 00:51:49,760
okay

1366
00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:51,839
and that was the end of it but it was an

1367
00:51:55,510 --> 00:51:53,920
ordeal for you know more than a year it

1368
00:51:59,829 --> 00:51:55,520
cost mac a ton of money

1369
00:52:01,030 --> 00:51:59,839
in legal fees um no no end of anxiety

1370
00:52:05,349 --> 00:52:01,040
and anguish

1371
00:52:07,829 --> 00:52:05,359
um so it was a very sad episode

1372
00:52:09,510 --> 00:52:07,839
and i should say uh by the way ryan that

1373
00:52:12,549 --> 00:52:09,520
harvard never put out a

1374
00:52:13,829 --> 00:52:12,559
a report a public report on on this

1375
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:13,839
inquiry it was a secret

1376
00:52:17,589 --> 00:52:15,680
thing i call it an inquisition because

1377
00:52:19,030 --> 00:52:17,599
that was a word that they used

1378
00:52:21,349 --> 00:52:19,040
when they tried to tell mac what it

1379
00:52:23,109 --> 00:52:21,359
wasn't and he was a good psychiatrist so

1380
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:23,119
he said why are they using a word to say

1381
00:52:27,349 --> 00:52:24,640
what it isn't

1382
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:27,359
um so it was a kind of an inquisition

1383
00:52:31,670 --> 00:52:28,000
into his

1384
00:52:34,309 --> 00:52:31,680
methods and thoughts processes

1385
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:34,319
but they never put out a a public report

1386
00:52:37,829 --> 00:52:36,240
on it i put it all together in my book i

1387
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:37,839
think for the first time

1388
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:40,400
through uh legal max you know legal

1389
00:52:44,790 --> 00:52:41,520
memoranda

1390
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:44,800
through uh emails uh interviews with

1391
00:52:48,470 --> 00:52:46,800
danny sheehan and eric mcleish

1392
00:52:51,109 --> 00:52:48,480
so i tell them the whole story the

1393
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:51,119
harvard inquisition in my book

1394
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:54,480
yes and you do a really good job um

1395
00:52:57,990 --> 00:52:57,599
very interestingly bud hopkins and john

1396
00:53:00,150 --> 00:52:58,000
mack

1397
00:53:03,589 --> 00:53:00,160
seem to be quite the dynamic can we

1398
00:53:07,589 --> 00:53:03,599
discuss the relationship between the two

1399
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:07,599
yeah yes and no john john mack learned

1400
00:53:12,790 --> 00:53:10,240
of alien abduction from bud hopkins

1401
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:12,800
bud hopkins was an artist who had seen a

1402
00:53:17,589 --> 00:53:14,480
ufo in the 60s

1403
00:53:18,309 --> 00:53:17,599
and made himself a uh abduction

1404
00:53:20,710 --> 00:53:18,319
researcher

1405
00:53:21,430 --> 00:53:20,720
by studying hypnosis and interviewing

1406
00:53:25,270 --> 00:53:21,440
people

1407
00:53:27,349 --> 00:53:25,280
who'd had these experiences and um

1408
00:53:29,109 --> 00:53:27,359
became really one of the first experts

1409
00:53:29,589 --> 00:53:29,119
and he wrote a book called missing time

1410
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:29,599
which

1411
00:53:33,349 --> 00:53:31,440
for the first time is before john mack

1412
00:53:35,510 --> 00:53:33,359
got into it for the first time

1413
00:53:39,510 --> 00:53:35,520
identified the phenomenon of people

1414
00:53:41,349 --> 00:53:39,520
having their memories fogged somehow

1415
00:53:42,790 --> 00:53:41,359
by their experiences so they couldn't

1416
00:53:44,630 --> 00:53:42,800
remember what had happened and they

1417
00:53:46,230 --> 00:53:44,640
would turn up hours later

1418
00:53:47,750 --> 00:53:46,240
if they were driving someplace they

1419
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:47,760
would lose track of you know what

1420
00:53:50,790 --> 00:53:49,760
happened and later in hypnotic

1421
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:50,800
regression

1422
00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:53,200
they would you know recapture memories

1423
00:53:57,349 --> 00:53:54,240
of being

1424
00:53:58,150 --> 00:53:57,359
stopped by a spacecraft and aliens you

1425
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:58,160
know

1426
00:54:03,910 --> 00:54:01,200
uh abducting them and things like that

1427
00:54:05,589 --> 00:54:03,920
but um they only became aware of it

1428
00:54:07,270 --> 00:54:05,599
initially by the fact that they turned

1429
00:54:08,230 --> 00:54:07,280
up where they were going hours late and

1430
00:54:09,030 --> 00:54:08,240
they didn't know what happened in the

1431
00:54:11,510 --> 00:54:09,040
meantime

1432
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:11,520
so uh hopkins had written a book about

1433
00:54:16,230 --> 00:54:12,240
this

1434
00:54:18,630 --> 00:54:16,240
which was very pioneering and another um

1435
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:18,640
colleague david jacobs a temple

1436
00:54:23,990 --> 00:54:20,800
university history professor

1437
00:54:26,470 --> 00:54:24,000
also studied hypnosis along with

1438
00:54:27,510 --> 00:54:26,480
uh hopkins and they both collected their

1439
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:27,520
own circle of

1440
00:54:34,230 --> 00:54:31,200
experiences or abductees to to study

1441
00:54:35,829 --> 00:54:34,240
um so john mack through a contact he had

1442
00:54:39,109 --> 00:54:35,839
made at esseline

1443
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:39,119
uh that you know that psychic think tank

1444
00:54:42,150 --> 00:54:40,000
on the west coast

1445
00:54:43,910 --> 00:54:42,160
so fast got an introduction to hopkins

1446
00:54:45,589 --> 00:54:43,920
and at first he thought he wouldn't

1447
00:54:46,710 --> 00:54:45,599
contact him because he thought the whole

1448
00:54:49,750 --> 00:54:46,720
thing was silly

1449
00:54:52,789 --> 00:54:49,760
and he couldn't imagine anything

1450
00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:52,799
uh you know uh real about people

1451
00:54:55,829 --> 00:54:53,680
claiming

1452
00:54:57,109 --> 00:54:55,839
abduction experiences but he found

1453
00:55:00,390 --> 00:54:57,119
himself in new york uh

1454
00:55:04,870 --> 00:55:00,400
began at the beginning of 1990 and uh

1455
00:55:06,710 --> 00:55:04,880
sort of um one of those events that

1456
00:55:08,870 --> 00:55:06,720
really changes your life for reasons

1457
00:55:12,309 --> 00:55:08,880
that are kind of strange

1458
00:55:14,069 --> 00:55:12,319
he called hopkins after all and hopkins

1459
00:55:15,510 --> 00:55:14,079
showed him letters he had gotten from

1460
00:55:18,230 --> 00:55:15,520
people uh

1461
00:55:19,190 --> 00:55:18,240
recounting these abduction experiences

1462
00:55:22,710 --> 00:55:19,200
um

1463
00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:22,720
mack was intrigued he you know uh

1464
00:55:26,789 --> 00:55:24,720
uh collected his own circle of

1465
00:55:28,789 --> 00:55:26,799
experiences and started studying them

1466
00:55:30,630 --> 00:55:28,799
so that's how he got into it so you know

1467
00:55:33,510 --> 00:55:30,640
bud hopkins was the first one

1468
00:55:33,990 --> 00:55:33,520
but they eventually um took different

1469
00:55:36,309 --> 00:55:34,000
paths

1470
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:36,319
because bud hopkins was much more

1471
00:55:39,190 --> 00:55:38,240
attuned to the idea that these things

1472
00:55:42,150 --> 00:55:39,200
were happening

1473
00:55:43,910 --> 00:55:42,160
in recognizable reality these were real

1474
00:55:46,870 --> 00:55:43,920
experiences these people

1475
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:46,880
were undergoing um actual physical

1476
00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:48,319
abductions

1477
00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:52,400
and that the aliens were bent on

1478
00:55:57,750 --> 00:55:54,480
you know breeding a hybrid race and

1479
00:56:00,230 --> 00:55:57,760
there was a reproductive purpose

1480
00:56:00,950 --> 00:56:00,240
you know in these abductions and it was

1481
00:56:05,829 --> 00:56:00,960
all

1482
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:05,839
felt that there was something more to

1483
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:08,160
it that it wasn't happening in an

1484
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:10,480
identifiable reality

1485
00:56:14,710 --> 00:56:13,440
that hopkins and jacobs were being too

1486
00:56:17,030 --> 00:56:14,720
literal

1487
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:17,040
and that there was something else going

1488
00:56:19,750 --> 00:56:17,760
on

1489
00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:19,760
and anyway the people were coming

1490
00:56:24,470 --> 00:56:21,280
forward with uh

1491
00:56:27,589 --> 00:56:24,480
trent you know uh transformative uh

1492
00:56:29,430 --> 00:56:27,599
experiences that they felt um they had

1493
00:56:30,549 --> 00:56:29,440
to take better care of the earth and

1494
00:56:33,670 --> 00:56:30,559
that they

1495
00:56:35,829 --> 00:56:33,680
felt the love of the cosmos and the

1496
00:56:37,670 --> 00:56:35,839
love of the supreme being so that there

1497
00:56:39,030 --> 00:56:37,680
was something not just traumatic but

1498
00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:39,040
also uplifting about the whole

1499
00:56:42,150 --> 00:56:39,920
experience

1500
00:56:42,950 --> 00:56:42,160
so that was mac's take on it hopkins had

1501
00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:42,960
a different take

1502
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:45,280
they sort of had a parting of the ways

1503
00:56:48,870 --> 00:56:47,040
but then they reconciled

1504
00:56:50,390 --> 00:56:48,880
towards the end of mack's life and they

1505
00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:50,400
realized they were both kind of doing

1506
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:52,720
similar research they had different

1507
00:56:59,829 --> 00:56:56,720
uh emphasis uh emphases

1508
00:57:00,309 --> 00:56:59,839
but they were overlapping in many ways

1509
00:57:03,109 --> 00:57:00,319
so they

1510
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:03,119
they kind of made up uh um and that so

1511
00:57:08,870 --> 00:57:06,079
that's the story of hopkins and mac

1512
00:57:09,270 --> 00:57:08,880
such so neat and another really neat

1513
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:09,280
thing

1514
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:12,880
how your book delved into

1515
00:57:19,670 --> 00:57:16,480
and recounted some cultural instances

1516
00:57:21,990 --> 00:57:19,680
when just fascinating when mack met

1517
00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:22,000
the dalai lama where the dalai lama's

1518
00:57:28,069 --> 00:57:24,000
accounts of villagers had similar

1519
00:57:29,990 --> 00:57:28,079
stories of small elves abducting people

1520
00:57:31,589 --> 00:57:30,000
yeah again this is something that i

1521
00:57:32,870 --> 00:57:31,599
think comes out the first time in my

1522
00:57:35,990 --> 00:57:32,880
book

1523
00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:36,000
that mac the dalai lama being in exile

1524
00:57:40,870 --> 00:57:36,720
from china

1525
00:57:42,710 --> 00:57:40,880
living in india is very sensitive to um

1526
00:57:44,630 --> 00:57:42,720
you know how he's covered in the media

1527
00:57:46,230 --> 00:57:44,640
and was not necessarily

1528
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:46,240
eager to be presented as someone

1529
00:57:51,430 --> 00:57:48,240
interested in alien abduction

1530
00:57:54,950 --> 00:57:51,440
but um a filmmaker who

1531
00:57:58,390 --> 00:57:54,960
was doing a film on uh

1532
00:58:00,390 --> 00:57:58,400
you know buddhists and the dalai lama um

1533
00:58:01,430 --> 00:58:00,400
got an invitation to go back and bring a

1534
00:58:03,430 --> 00:58:01,440
group of experts

1535
00:58:05,349 --> 00:58:03,440
including mark to the dalai lama to

1536
00:58:08,870 --> 00:58:05,359
discuss alien abduction

1537
00:58:11,349 --> 00:58:08,880
so in 1992 mack went and

1538
00:58:11,990 --> 00:58:11,359
kept a transcript of the proceedings a

1539
00:58:13,750 --> 00:58:12,000
week's

1540
00:58:15,109 --> 00:58:13,760
meetings with the dalai lama and these

1541
00:58:17,670 --> 00:58:15,119
other people that

1542
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:17,680
came from the states and talked about

1543
00:58:21,349 --> 00:58:19,040
the discussions and it turned out the

1544
00:58:24,390 --> 00:58:21,359
dalai lama being a spiritual

1545
00:58:27,750 --> 00:58:24,400
figure was very attuned to the idea

1546
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:27,760
of presences that could not be

1547
00:58:32,150 --> 00:58:29,920
explained in conventional reality

1548
00:58:34,150 --> 00:58:32,160
interacting with humans he sought

1549
00:58:36,069 --> 00:58:34,160
not necessarily as abductions but you

1550
00:58:39,589 --> 00:58:36,079
know small elves or spiritual

1551
00:58:42,470 --> 00:58:39,599
beings and different levels of uh

1552
00:58:44,390 --> 00:58:42,480
consciousness um so their their

1553
00:58:46,789 --> 00:58:44,400
discussions back and forth which i

1554
00:58:47,670 --> 00:58:46,799
you know relate in my book are really

1555
00:58:49,430 --> 00:58:47,680
fascinating

1556
00:58:51,270 --> 00:58:49,440
and you know it won't be found anywhere

1557
00:58:54,069 --> 00:58:51,280
else um

1558
00:58:55,349 --> 00:58:54,079
and i think the dalai lama learned

1559
00:58:59,270 --> 00:58:55,359
something from mac and

1560
00:59:01,190 --> 00:58:59,280
vice versa mac from the dalai lama and

1561
00:59:03,750 --> 00:59:01,200
he he had an affinity of being able to

1562
00:59:06,710 --> 00:59:03,760
meet all of these i mean

1563
00:59:08,309 --> 00:59:06,720
the people he met it just read like a

1564
00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:08,319
hollywood movie

1565
00:59:12,630 --> 00:59:11,520
and uh this book is just a work of art

1566
00:59:17,190 --> 00:59:12,640
mr blumenthal

1567
00:59:18,309 --> 00:59:17,200
uh ralph and in in the words of shirley

1568
00:59:20,150 --> 00:59:18,319
maclaine to mack

1569
00:59:22,150 --> 00:59:20,160
everything is divine everything is

1570
00:59:23,589 --> 00:59:22,160
sacred brilliant book and a must read

1571
00:59:25,829 --> 00:59:23,599
for everyone

1572
00:59:27,190 --> 00:59:25,839
i thank you for coming on mr blumenthal

1573
00:59:29,829 --> 00:59:27,200
any last

1574
00:59:31,510 --> 00:59:29,839
words that you'd like to tell our

1575
00:59:34,710 --> 00:59:31,520
listeners

1576
00:59:38,230 --> 00:59:34,720
well thank you um you know and

1577
00:59:41,750 --> 00:59:38,240
i say at the end of the book that um

1578
00:59:45,430 --> 00:59:41,760
i i regard mac as a hero because he

1579
00:59:48,069 --> 00:59:45,440
he broke boundaries um

1580
00:59:49,109 --> 00:59:48,079
uh he went on this quest that took

1581
00:59:50,630 --> 00:59:49,119
courage

1582
00:59:52,950 --> 00:59:50,640
uh even though there were a lot of

1583
00:59:55,430 --> 00:59:52,960
reasons why he couldn't

1584
00:59:56,950 --> 00:59:55,440
wouldn't and shouldn't have risked his

1585
01:00:00,230 --> 00:59:56,960
career to do it

1586
01:00:03,510 --> 01:00:00,240
um and um

1587
01:00:05,829 --> 01:00:03,520
um you know the the whole story of

1588
01:00:08,789 --> 01:00:05,839
uh the accounts of alien abduction sort

1589
01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:08,799
of places humans at a disadvantage

1590
01:00:14,710 --> 01:00:12,160
with uh alien beings because they

1591
01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:14,720
have superior technology and they can do

1592
01:00:18,390 --> 01:00:15,440
things that we

1593
01:00:19,030 --> 01:00:18,400
can't and they they treat us like you

1594
01:00:20,950 --> 01:00:19,040
know

1595
01:00:22,309 --> 01:00:20,960
laboratory animals according to the

1596
01:00:26,309 --> 01:00:22,319
accounts of people

1597
01:00:28,470 --> 01:00:26,319
testing them and um traumatizing them

1598
01:00:29,910 --> 01:00:28,480
and yet uh you know here we have a guy

1599
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:29,920
like mac who

1600
01:00:33,349 --> 01:00:32,160
is studying them he's studying the

1601
01:00:36,630 --> 01:00:33,359
aliens

1602
01:00:38,630 --> 01:00:36,640
and uh and and uh

1603
01:00:40,150 --> 01:00:38,640
and standing up to them in a sense in

1604
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:40,160
terms of you know gathering

1605
01:00:43,589 --> 01:00:42,400
information and trying to explain what's

1606
01:00:47,190 --> 01:00:43,599
going on in this

1607
01:00:49,270 --> 01:00:47,200
very murky area so i think uh

1608
01:00:51,349 --> 01:00:49,280
at the end i i sort of tap the human

1609
01:00:52,950 --> 01:00:51,359
species on the on the back or clap them

1610
01:00:55,349 --> 01:00:52,960
on the back and say you know

1611
01:00:57,030 --> 01:00:55,359
hey we're pretty great are we humans we

1612
01:00:58,390 --> 01:00:57,040
can't do all the things the aliens can

1613
01:01:01,430 --> 01:00:58,400
supposedly do but

1614
01:01:03,829 --> 01:01:01,440
hey we're studying them and uh

1615
01:01:04,789 --> 01:01:03,839
and we're pretty courageous to do that

1616
01:01:06,789 --> 01:01:04,799
so

1617
01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:06,799
i think it's maybe a little bit of good

1618
01:01:09,670 --> 01:01:08,640
news in what some people have taken

1619
01:01:12,230 --> 01:01:09,680
there's a lot of

1620
01:01:14,470 --> 01:01:12,240
bad news in terms of us being at a

1621
01:01:16,470 --> 01:01:14,480
military disadvantage or

1622
01:01:18,710 --> 01:01:16,480
you know being traumatized by these

1623
01:01:19,990 --> 01:01:18,720
contacts which to this day nobody knows

1624
01:01:21,910 --> 01:01:20,000
what they are

1625
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:21,920
you know what and what dimension they're

1626
01:01:26,390 --> 01:01:23,280
happening in

1627
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:26,400
um you know it's very frightening stuff

1628
01:01:33,270 --> 01:01:29,440
and yet uh here's a case of a a

1629
01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:33,280
heroic human who who took it on as

1630
01:01:38,069 --> 01:01:36,160
a mission in a quest so that's sort of

1631
01:01:40,630 --> 01:01:38,079
how i end up

1632
01:01:42,789 --> 01:01:40,640
well reflectively you're a hero yourself

1633
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:42,799
for your contribution and i thank you so

1634
01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:44,640
much for coming on

1635
01:01:49,589 --> 01:01:48,400
terrific ryan man oh man well there you

1636
01:01:53,270 --> 01:01:49,599
have it guys

1637
01:01:55,990 --> 01:01:53,280
ralph blumenthal a hero for sure

1638
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:56,000
and i'm telling you this book is one

1639
01:02:00,789 --> 01:01:57,200
worth getting

1640
01:02:03,190 --> 01:02:00,799
definitely check it out until next time

1641
01:02:04,789 --> 01:02:03,200
keep your eyes to the skies feet on the

1642
01:02:12,950 --> 01:02:04,799
ground but don't forget

1643
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:33,029
[Music]